I really enjoy jazz a lot, but some of these songs seem like there was no effort put into the lyrics or titles whatsoever. Tunes like "Peri's Scope," or "One Note Samba" (which actually sings about how the song is only made of one note...yeah) make me cringe and actually long for the days of Harold Arlen and Rodgers & Hammerstein.

But some of these songs are still hits, especially since most jazz is instrumental these days, so we don't have to bother with the lyrics. Kinda got me thinking about other music or songs with pointless or unintelligible lyrics.

Power metal seems to come to mind...

"De do do do de dah dah dah.."

"Na na na na, na na na na , hey hey, goodbye"

Words to live by.

You can't beat Geroge Gershwin, Cole Porter or Johnny Mercer.

`

Oobladee oobladah. Love it.

For me, music is primarily about music.
Lyrics ought to be lyrical. Lyric writing
is NOT a literary form. You wanna write
literature in a poetic style and set music
to it ? OK. Whatever the traffic will bear.
But I will argue that the text of such
vocals are "vocals" but not lyrics.

You got a story to tell and you can't be
bothered with a novel, or even a short
story ? I don't blame you cuz printed text
doesn't sell very well ... not meaning the
money, but just public appreciation for it.

But, if I hafta follow your narrative tale
from start to finish in your song ? You've
then lost me. I'm listening for some music.
If the music is cool, I can't pay attention
to a narrative. If the music doesn't hook
me, then I'm not paying attention to words
or music.

Now I'm not saying that "Oobladee oobladah"
is my limit for language content in lyrics.
I am against NARRATIVE, a continuing tale I
hafta follow such that if I have gaps in my
grasp of it, I have essentially zilch ! I'm
fine with simple imagery, with expression,
with letting me know how you feel, or what's
up, or your making me think or wonder about
something. But each verse/chorus must be
a free-standing facet, meaningful regardless
of what is in the other verses, meaningful
without needing to hook all the verses into
a linear narrative thread.

And finally you need to follow something like
the Newspaper Rule, shunning literary style,
or even liguistic propriety, in favor of more
direct plain speaking. But most of all, the
lyrics hafta be lyrics. Phrasing and the very
ring of each word hasta suit the meter and the
melody. It's not a matter of rhyming and of
counting out sylables. It's about why we sing
"felt so bad" instead of "felt very badly" or why
we use "sat me down" rather than "took a seat".

I'm not claiming that we can catalog the
usable vs unusable phrasing ... "going home",
"headed home", "homeward bound" or "rolling
home" all convey the same situation, but each
is LYRICALLY different. Like, you can resolve
to the root note thru a b5, or a M7 or a min2
and all are equal IF it's only about landing
at the root ... but we all know that musically
they are very different. Same idea about use
of words for lyrics. Superkalafragilistic and
expialadocious are not short and sweet but do
have lyric quality ... and partly because they
are meaningless to most listeners, and so are
not distracting, not "literary".

I don't know if I've made a specific point,
but I've said what I mean.

`

That is a very interesting take on listening. With the exception of a select few tunes, I have to listen to a new song at least three times before I decide if I am going to like it. The first time I have to just take it in, the second I listen for lyrics. Are they well written? Do they have cookie cutter tendencies? Is there a lot of dead wood? Do they try to say too much? Then the third time through the song, I listen for musicality. Chord progression, melody, dynamics, etc. And most importantly do the lyrics and music compliment each other?

There was a time when prose-type narrative was the preferred writing style. James Taylor, Cat Stevens, Joni Mitchel, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, John Lennon, etc. Not to say that these aren't some of the same people that are responsible for some of our favorite nonsense songs, Na,na,na,na na na na. Hey Jude X 50. Banaple Gas? Steamroller? But recent writing seems to be more interested in weak lyrics or no lyrics as the primary writing style. Ga Ga, Ooh lah lah. I'm blue dah ba de dah ba dah... Gotta get get that boom boom pow. Makes my spine tingle...

I will have to agree with you Shack, jazz is just as guilty of it. There's the school of thought "We have musical technicality on our side, lyrics are not as important because we are going to have a about ten minutes of soloing anyway.

It just comes down to if you are lyric person or not. Personally I would rather here an acoustic guitar or piano playing three repetitive chords and well written strophic music, ie.

"Moons and Junes and ferris wheels,
The Dizzy dancing way you feel.
As every fair tale comes real.
I've looked at love that way.
But now its just another show,
You leave em laughing when you go.
And if you care, don't let them know,
Don't give yourself away."

Then to hear iii,vi,ii,V,I with b9's and 13's with #11's and no content. But that's just me.

I think Steely Dan did an outstanding job of pairing intelligent lyrics with catchy melodies and "jazz" chords that still could be appreciated by common listeners. Their early hits were rock, but they transitioned fairly quickly to taking the changes places you didn't expect. I still care for melody more than lyrics, but I do appreciate lyrics that are out of the norm. My friend Paul Cebar, out of Milwaukee, is a master of using literate lyrics that are often funny and tell a story. He has a salsa-influenced tune called "A Knife and A Rose" that is based, as he tells it, on his playing weddings and parties where women would "come flying out of the kitchen holding knives and s*** so they could dance to a tune." His song tells the story of a woman who indeed gets him to dance by holding a knife in one hand and a rose in her teeth.

"Rose in her teeth and knife in her hand
Dance she told me, dance I did
And she did what I did
And I do whatever she says."

I also like Glenn Tilbrook, ex-Squeeze, for his ability to tell stories and have good melodies.

I like the discussion. I have to disagree on one point, Golem. I think well done lyrics can be literary poetry, and it is a literary art form when done well. I think of some songs today just like Schubert taking Goethe's "Erlkonig" poem and setting it to piano. There's a point where music, even rock, pop, jazz, etc., really does become elevated to the point of being "art music" through the complimentary nature of music and lyrics and the two becoming one cohesive whole.

MattG, there are bands out there who are still doing that same prose-narrative work. Many of them, I'll admit, are crap. Sifting through them all becomes totally worth it when you find a good one or two to which you can listen and really connect. Take a look through Pandora and put in "Joni Mitchell," or "James Taylor" or "Cat Stevens" and see who comes up.

If you haven't taken the time, Conor Oberst's solo work with the Mountain String Band (if memory serves correctly) is absolutely fantastic. I think of him as the successor to all of those guys and perhaps the forerunning figure for the style today.

Actually, that song is what I'd call
"honestly lyrical". Not only is the
language accessible and ear candy,
but each verse stands on it's own.
One about clouds, one about love,
and one about life.

Yes, there is some extra emotional
pull if you catch every verse, the
realization that all three create a
total picture of human existance,
but it's not linear, and the words
are not "heavy prose'. Way cool.

OTOH, this thread is titled "Jazz
Lyrics". "Clouds" is kinda folky ?

`

`

... and a "P.S." to my remark that:


Harold Arlen [et al, etc, etc] were
also NOT writing jazz tunes or jazz
lyrics. Neither B'way nor Tin Pan
Alley were applying themselves to
such a task. Adoption of their work
by jazz players was ex post facto.

`

`

I really dig Rickie Lee Jones's "Pop Pop"
album. It's all covers, so it is NOT about
"Song Writing". But it's very much about
how tunes with lyrics become "Jazzified".

Most of the tunes were prejazzified before
RLJ ever did them, but many were never
originally written as jazz. Personally, I'm
not fond of "jazz originals" as a 'genre' or
a concept. I prefer a "jazzified cover" of a
"virgin" tune. Seems I view jazz more as
an action upon something already extant
rather than as an action of "raw" creation,
therefor more about performance and less
about composition. You could say I bleeb
that improv' thrives better via interaction
amongst players than it does via the work
of a lone composer.


`

You're hitting a lot of great points here, Golem. Jazz improvisation is often defined as a performer's "views" on a certain tune or theme. And it is intriguing how many popular jazz artists are mainly cover bands. Jamie Cullum, Bob James, The Bad Plus, etc. etc.

Still, when we hear Bob James Trio playing the theme from Taxi or "Downtown," it's a totally new song after the rearrangement because he's changed so many things. And the solos themselves are a new composition in each one.

It's also intriguing to note, however, how readily various genres of music are being accepted by the jazz community (at least the non-fundamentalist groups), and groups like The Bad Plus, EST, Chris Potter, The Wood Brothers, and others are working to blend in metal, punk, funk, ska, and classical in increasing amounts into their jazz writing and playing.

And it's being reciprocated, too. ESPECIALLY in the metal world. Mudvayne, from what I've seen, have always been huge proponents of getting jazz and funk into metal. After all, jazz (especially funk) and metal really never were that far apart from what I've heard. The main differences were the vocals, lyrics, and amount of distortion on guitar, but the overall beats and technique were the same from many angles.

`

I really dig Brazilian jazz and jazzy semi-jazz.

Partly it's simply that AC Jobim is megacool but
it's also the "instrumental" nature of Portuguese
language ... "sszzjjjhhhgggzz" and like that. It
also helps for my personal preference vocalwise
that I don't understand Portuguese at all. Even
tho I don't speak Spanish, it's really the second
national language here in the USA, so it has an
easy familiarity and too many fragments hit my
ear with real meaning. But Portuguese liberates
my listening. It sounds alien, and no meaning
comes thru [to me] to distract from musicality
of the experience. "Sszzjjjhhhgggzz" ! ! !

`